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    • Rick

      Members Only Fluid Forum View   08/08/2017

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fr0sty

Why not multiple bucks in managed/intensive harvest zones?

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I see some states allow hunters to take more than one buck per season.  That got me wondering why MN doesn't allow multiple bucks in zones where you can take more than one deer.  Thoughts?

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First, i am not a fan of that idea.

My thought would be the purpose of managed and I.H. areas are to reduce the herd numbers.  The most effective way to that goal is to harvest more does.  For the most part harvesting more bucks would do little to reduce the herd.

Also, I think the effectiveness would suffer from people waiting and passing on does to get that 2 or more buck.

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Ok, then maybe just change the question to why not more that one buck tag per hunter?  Not sure how feasible it is, but it clearly seems to work in other states.

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Our hunter to deer ratio is too high.   We're already slim on adult bucks in this state compared to the number of people looking for them.  You'd just have a lot of unfilled buck tags - a lot more than we already have.

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It would mean, all over my dads area/local sections of land, that each husband would have 4 buck tags every fall easily sparing his last one if he likes late bow hunting or muzzleloading. A bad winter or two would put a lot of pressure on what deer would be available. I don't know about a 2nd buck tag, why'd you shoot the first one ? But hear your point and glad there's some sort of topic up here 10 days before we load our big irons. :)

PS. Use your phone to log in sometimes, there's some interesting like commercials to view.

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Being a new archery hunter, I would like the option to take a buck with my bow and also one with my gun.  I'm gunning for 3.5 or older, but would take a 2.5 year old with my bow if I could still fill a buck take with my long gun.

 

I do understand the pressure criticism though. Do other states have that many more bucks/deer?

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I am not sure if it is purely higher deer numbers.  But we certainly have higher hunter density per deer.   Add on top of that, we have a less selective tradition in Minnesota.  Hunters here are less likely to pass small bucks than many other states.  Right or wrong I personally don't care what others chose to shoot it Thier hunt.

I too, felt the same way as you about being able to shot one with each license.  Overtime I came to change my mind, I just don't believe it would be wise.

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I personally would like to see a one deer per hunter per year policy. No party hunting. You kill one = your done. State wide. Each hunter gets a "deer license" similar to how they do it in the western states. Archery season starts in September and runs through the ends of October. Then a 1-week break. Followed by a 2 week rifle season, a 2-week break, and finishing up with a 2-week muzzle loader season in December. Your "deer" tag gets you into all 3-seasons. But you only get 1-deer. 

 

The reason your idea won't work was stated, by you, earlier. You want to hold out for a 3.5year old buck, but you are willing to shoot a 2.5year old with your bow. You can't have it both ways. Kill him young and he won't get old. 

 

MN has multiple problems. And one of the biggest is the "I get to" "I want to" mentality if it's hunters. I want to shoot the biggest deer of my life every year. And I should get to shoot two of them. This isn't reality TV or a hunting show. 

 

 

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Also, many of the states that allow the harvest of more than one buck have lottery systems in place to control harvest of bucks. Generally archery licenses are over the counter, rifle are lottery and you may have to wait a couple of years between draws, and muzzleloader is also a lottery and you may not get drawn for 5+ years.

 

So, while it is possible to get drawn for and kill more than one buck in a year, that would most likely mean going several years in between without a buck tag for rifle or muzzleloader.

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Its already hard enough to hunt and kill a 3.5+ year old buck in MN.  Start allowing 2 or more bucks per person and that gets even harder as fewer and fewer bucks will even live to see 3.5 years old.


You have to ask yourself do you want quantity or quality?  Its really hard to have both given the deer population in MN and the mentality of most hunters in the state.  I know in the area I rifle hunt a 2.5 year old deer is even hard to come by. After the zone went lottery a few years ago any buck with any sort of spike or fork rack was immediately shot as its basically the only option people had if they wanted to tag a deer that year. Really hard to improve quality when dealing with that mind set.  

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Other states have a lot more deer, we would need a population boom like the early 2000's. It also doesn't help that most of mn is well north of those other states that allow 2+ deer a year.

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I grew up in Michigan which allows you to take 2 bucks per year if you buy the combo license. The catch is the second one has to have 4 or more points on one side. Also, in the last Few years or so the state has implemented areas of APR which obviously restricts the first one. It's been some time since I lived there, but I can tell you that I've never personally seen a deer that had 4+ on one side. I'm sure that is a product of the any first buck rule. 

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2 hours ago, Neighbor_guy said:

I personally would like to see a one deer per hunter per year policy. No party hunting. You kill one = your done. State wide. Each hunter gets a "deer license" similar to how they do it in the western states. Archery season starts in September and runs through the ends of October. Then a 1-week break. Followed by a 2 week rifle season, a 2-week break, and finishing up with a 2-week muzzle loader season in December. Your "deer" tag gets you into all 3-seasons. But you only get 1-deer. 

 

 

^^^^ This.

I grew up out west, and have never grasped the concept or benefit of party hunting.  To me it seems like the stupidest thing in the world, and a great way to circumvent the system.  Too many people that tag deer every year that have never fired a gun in their lives.  Grandma is back in the shack cooking breakfast, and yet somehow she shot a nice doe at the same time. 

 

You buy a tag, you shoot your deer (any deer), with any weapon (in the proper season), and you are done for the year.  Simple.  Arrow a buck in September, done for the year.  Or hold out till the bitter end and strike out, your choice.  It would also eliminate the confusing regs that we have to sift through every year to figure out when/where/how many deer you can hunt.

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I'm not sure whats worse, debating the presidential election or best practices for whitetail management in MN.  But I will say this, MN is a lot different than other states as we have such a diverse ecosystem.  The Boreal forest of the northeast, central hardwoods, mineral rich SE, and western prairie.  All need to be managed differently due to the different deer densities, habitat and food.  I'm kinda glad I'm not the one calling the shots and trying to appease everyone.   

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I'm all for the 2nd buck tag in Managed or IH areas.  I understand the biological approach that shooting a buck doesn't control the population like shooting a doe.  Don't disagree.  But the areas that deer numbers are high enough to warrant additional management tags there wouldn't be much damage done to the buck population if people were allowed to buy a 2nd tag.  Make it the price of an out of state tag for all i care and use it to generate $$$.  In SE where APR is in place, this will have very little effect on the population/quality of bucks because you won't have an increase in 1.5 yr olds going down.

 

That said this will never happen.  The only crowd bigger than the "i want to, I get to" crowd is the "if I can't, you shouldn't be able to" crowd.

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I am a life long party hunter and refuse to apologize for it. To say that it is easy for gramma to be cooking while someone shoots her deer is a non factor as I know there are plenty of archery hunters who shoot their deer and then fill a tag for their spouse/kids/parents etc. If you are breaking the law you are breaking the law and whether you are in a group or solo doesn't mean it will or won't happen if you choose to.

 

That being said, I would be totally fine with changing the seasons around but to me, if you want thing equal, then make them equal. If you don't want group hunting then let the rifle and muzzy hunters have the same 4 month season the sting and stickers get so that there is no big rush and time limit to fill the tag. If drives are eliminated it shouldn't matter what device you use to harvest the deer. Have one, single state wide license and let the hunters hunt whenever they want through the whole season. That will remove the pressure and keep the deer from getting run around during the peak of the rut and the gun hunters don't have to worry about whether they can get a decent hunt because the corn isn't out of the field or the areas they hunt are currently under water.  

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1 hour ago, deadgooses said:

^^^^ This.

I grew up out west, and have never grasped the concept or benefit of party hunting.  To me it seems like the stupidest thing in the world, and a great way to circumvent the system.  Too many people that tag deer every year that have never fired a gun in their lives.  Grandma is back in the shack cooking breakfast, and yet somehow she shot a nice doe at the same time. 

 

You buy a tag, you shoot your deer (any deer), with any weapon (in the proper season), and you are done for the year.  Simple.  Arrow a buck in September, done for the year.  Or hold out till the bitter end and strike out, your choice.  It would also eliminate the confusing regs that we have to sift through every year to figure out when/where/how many deer you can hunt.

 

 

While I agree about party hunting how would outlawing it really make a difference.  Its already illegal for you to tag a deer using grandma's tag when she's back home making dinner. To legally use another persons tag they need to be in the field hunting with you using the same type of weapon. Even if you outlaw it people will still have grandma buy her tag and then they'll just saw "sure granny shot that buck over there, she's a great shot isn't she".

 

A buddy of mine hunts with another guy occasionally and he heads into the woods with a pocket full of tags (his, his dads, his uncles, his wifes, etc)  He hunts alone or with one or 2 friends most of the time.  Think he's going to change his methods since they are already illegal?  I know last time my buddy hunted with him they had a CO pay them a visit at the truck at the end of the day.  They guy had made some sort of comment about his party hunting and the CO read him the riot act about it but since he hadn't actually tagged anything he hadn't really done anything wrong yet so he walked away free and clear with his pocket full of tags.  As far as I know he's got a pocket full of tags again this year. 

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I don't think you should have to apologize Purple.  I don't understand the folks that think eliminating party hunting will solve the deer problems.  Are there bad apples?  Sure.  But that's across the board, not just those that party hunt.  I don't think they needed to eliminate party hunting for bucks in SE with the switch to APR.

 

I do agree with jumbo, different areas of the state have to be managed differently.  That becomes pretty tough when you have some that want consistent rules statewide.  MN is actually quite a bit more open as far as hunting opportunities and being able to move around and hunt different regions then most states are.

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Why do people whine so much about party hunting? If I allow someone else to fill my tag and effectively end my hunt and extend his or hers, what's it to you? A tag is being filled, doesn't much matter who is filling it. The tag was purchased, money was given to the DNR for it. Why would you rather see it go unfilled?

 

Some people still believe in the spirit of cooperation. People today are so self-centered. 

 

I wish more "sports-men and women" would think about where and why the sport of hunting originated.

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35 minutes ago, Big Dave2 said:

Why do people whine so much about party hunting? If I allow someone else to fill my tag and effectively end my hunt and extend his or hers, what's it to you? A tag is being filled, doesn't much matter who is filling it. The tag was purchased, money was given to the DNR for it. Why would you rather see it go unfilled?

 

Some people still believe in the spirit of cooperation. People today are so self-centered. 

 

I wish more "sports-men and women" would think about where and why the sport of hunting originated.

 

People are down on party hunting because it is a system that is easily abused. It's a policy that is impossibly to police. And a problem in some areas that can't support the number of deer killled by a skilled individual with a pocket full of tags. 

 

The DNR admits that 10%of the hunters kill 75% of the deer killed each year. 

 

I can admit this, in my prime, my ex wife and my brother killed deer every year. And they never pulled the trigger or dropped the string. They were in the field when the shots were taken, (legal) but in many cases it was just for a day. Those who are only in camp for the traditional opening day always tag out :whistle: its magic. The majority of the very good and very skilled deer hunters I know, according to DNR records, have almost never tagged a deer, their wives however, wow can they hunt. 

 

As the old old saying goes, "the camp chef is always tagged out"

 

not intending to hijack the thread. Just making an observation

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2 minutes ago, Neighbor_guy said:

 

People are down on party hunting because it is a system that is easily abused. It's a policy that is impossibly to police. And a problem in some areas that can't support the number of deer killled by a skilled individual with a pocket full of tags. 

 

The DNR admits that 10%of the hunters kill 75% of the deer killed each year. 

 

I can admit this, in my prime, my ex wife and my brother killed deer every year. And they never pulled the trigger or dropped the string. They were in the field when the shots were taken, (legal) but in many cases it was just for a day. Those who are only in camp for the traditional opening day always tag out :whistle: its magic. The majority of the very good and very skilled deer hunters I know, according to DNR records, have almost never tagged a deer, their wives however, wow can they hunt. 

 

As the old old saying goes, "the camp chef is always tagged out"

 

not intending to hijack the thread. Just making an observation

 

What you are talking about is not abuse at all. Tags were purchased, tags were filled. What difference does it make who filled them as long as the tags belong to people in your hunting group. There is no more abuse in this system than a guy going out hunting and purchasing a tag for his wife who never hunts and filling it. This could happen whether you allow party hunting or not.

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1 hour ago, ejf76 said:

I don't think you should have to apologize Purple.  I don't understand the folks that think eliminating party hunting will solve the deer problems.  Are there bad apples?  Sure.  But that's across the board, not just those that party hunt.  I don't think they needed to eliminate party hunting for bucks in SE with the switch to APR.

 

I do agree with jumbo, different areas of the state have to be managed differently.  That becomes pretty tough when you have some that want consistent rules statewide.  MN is actually quite a bit more open as far as hunting opportunities and being able to move around and hunt different regions then most states are.

I agree with Jumbo as well. There are areas where certain management practices work really well and others where the same thing will not work at all. Yes, it's a diverse state with a diverse culture. Some hunters like to sit by themselves in solitude and do it all themselves and that is absolutely fine. Others like to gather as a family and hunt together as a group and in either situation who is to say either is wrong? 

Personally, I have a son who has been hunting with me since he was legally able and I have let him fill my tag more than once.We have 5 kids in our group about the same age and all the dads have let their kids take a deer for them if they wanted to. Was this because I couldn't do it myself? Not at all but rather that I got more satisfaction from seeing him out there with me hunting than I would have had by sitting out there without him by me. If thats a crime then lock me away.:grin: 

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When I first started hunting we did a lot of drives, and often times the older guys got to do more of the posting. Or if a guy had been on a dry spell, they got to post more too. I never had a problem with that and it was a lot of fun to know you helped a family member get a deer, even if it was their second one of the season. After making a drive through some pretty thick cover, you would be more upset if someone didn't fill your tag if a shot presented itself. We split all the meat evenly anyway, so who pulled the trigger wasn't a huge concern.

 

In all I think a lot of one's opinions about hunting and fishing regs are simply how and where you were brought up. People who grew up where party hunting isn't legal don't see the value of it. Many states allow you to bait deer, and I would venture the majority of MN hunters think that's an unethical practice. Some states still allow you to hunt deer with dogs, etc.

 

In terms of the original question, just based on the number of hunters we have, the length of our seasons and size of our deer herd, allowing 2 bucks would really hurt our deer population I'm afraid.

 

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19 minutes ago, Getanet said:


 Many states allow you to bait deer, and I would venture the majority of MN hunters think that's an unethical practice. Some states still allow you to hunt deer with dogs, etc.

 

 

 

Yet the stores are full of stuff to feed deer, and "food plots" abound.

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Informal I know but I asked 14 women at work today if they buy a deer license for their husband to fill, 12/14 said yes ! Most said they are many miles away during opening weekend and since you can phone register their husbands say nothing to worry about. This is normal. So heck with 2 bucks just get your wife a tag like the hundreds maybe thousands do in this state and you're already easily set for 2 bucks or more there is no limit really.

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