The Griz is not allowed to continue Guiding...

[jigginjim]

Pierbridge, I do agree with you that 90% of the guys that went through the coarse, really are not safer. Time is the main factor, have fished on the river for over 25 yrs. Knowing the the river, is different then knowing how to fish the river.

[bturck]

What would happen if guides were licensed like, lets say truckers? For each additional endorsement ie: school bus, charter bus, haz mat your license once endorsed would increase the license fee. For guides lets say 1-3 people a set fee, launchs a set fee, and sightseeing cruisers another fee. Maybe not being a guide I'm not getting the full picture but it doesn't seem equitable to charge the same license fee for guiding 2 people as if you were running a 30 passenger launch or sightseeing boat. I don't disagree with the licensing but it sure would make sense to charge what is approriate for the guides intent. Just my nickels worth.

[fiskyknut]

Bill, an oupv of any type only lets you carry up to 6. These type licenses are for guides and charter captains.

No 30 passenger vessels or 200 ton barges!! Whole different animals as I eluded to in my earlier post here, 7/27 pg 3.. All kinds of different MMD's for a wide variety of commercial operators.

Iffin you have an oupv of any type you can't just jump in a 30 passenger ferry or a 200 ton barge and pilot the thing!

[bturck]

Hey Fisky, good to hear your voice. As I mentioned I'm not a guide (Ask anyone at Riverbend, other than Charterboss LOL). Are the license fee's the same or is it more expensive to be licensed for a barge or large boat as opposed to a smaller guide service?

Must be raining up your way today too, or you'd be on the pond pulling some plugs.

[fiskyknut]

More for initial license..More money as well as much more at sea time/expierience serving aboard a relative type and tonnage rated vessel is required.

No rain yet. Did the trolling thing yesterday, and last week in the heat!

[Jiggin4eyes62]

For the record and this is coming from every person I know who has the 6 pack license. You will be greatly disapointed if you think this License/class will teach you anything about being a better, safer boater on the river. It won't.

Now like stated above the law is the law so you have to have it but after weighing in all the data I'm covinced this requirment and the hoops they put you through is a bit over the top say the least.

I'll take the Griz and others like him over 90 percent of the 6 pack ceritfied captains with my well being on the river anyday and Sunday!

But you guys are right the laws is law so one must comply...

I've read the entire thread and you are spot on. In my opinion, the only difference you get in a guide that has this license and one who does not, is they paid some cash out of pocket to get it. It will not make you safer on the water, catch more fish or anything like that. Just the government taking more money. I always thought the Griz did follow the law. Wonder if he has guide insurance?

[half-dutch]

I wondered about the insurance angle, too. Normally business insurance requires proper licenses or the policy is subject to being revoked and claims denied.

The gist I take from most postings on this thread is that a lot of recreational boaters are more dangerous than nearly any commercial operator, properly licensed or not.

Personally I would like to see some sort of license testing and requirement for all boat operators of watercraft big enough to require state licensing (over 9 ft in MN IIRC) on public waters, just like it takes a vanilla license to operate any motor vehicle on state roads. You have to license the boat anyway and the trailer, too. I don't see any need for a complicated or expensive basic license, but for increasing vessel size there should be increased requirements. Graduate the level according to the size of boat to be operated, and then tag commercial license levels on top just like for driving a truck.

So some guy goes down and puts out 10, 20, 30 grand or more for a boat, it seems to me the public has a right to know that he or she can properly operate such massive equipment in public. The extra expense of the licensing process and the time invested would really be small potatoes by comparison. Things like lighting, safety equipment, rights of way, standard rules of the road, small craft warnings, when and how to render assistance, what may or may not be put into the waters are too often completely ignored these days, and very often the people who end up getting hurt or killed are not the ones responsible in the first place.

My personal wish would not to allow licenses or licensing of jet skis, but that is just me... or maybe not. I would also require a special permit to tow water skiers, having come within inches of having been run down by one. With the tow out, that kind of operation is certainly more complex and potentially dangerous to both participants and uninvolved parties.

For pete's sakes you have to get certified before you can scuba dive, and the public safety is a whole lot more at risk from recreational boats.

Actually it looks to me like Griz was given a warning instead of being run in, which he could have been since the regs have been in place for quite some time and he appears to have been in technical violation for a while. It seems to me they could have been a whole lot harder on him than they were.

[Coach1310]

Originally Posted By: Coach1310

I agree 100% with you Harvey. He shouldn't be guiding without the proper license. My issue is that any average Joe can take his speedboat out and go flying up and down the river and put everyone in danger, but we seem to add a license or certificate or whatever to the businesses. It sure seems like they are always looking for ways to add $$$ to the bottom line and I guess I don't see this making the waterways a LOT safer. You can have licenses and certificates all you want. I'll take the guy with the most common sense anyday. Just my opinion.....

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand...

If you hire this average Joe to give joyrides on the river, he needs to be certified just like everyone else.

If the Griz wants to go fishing on his own with family, he doesn't need the same certification.

Its about regulating commercial commerce on a navigable body of water. Its not about fishing, its not about guiding, its about those who operate commercially on that body of water. Your right in that it probably has nothing to do with safety, but it has everything to do with those who want to make money operating on these waters.

Okay.... I never said it was hard to understand.....I understand that it is a way to regulate commercial traffic. However, if SAFETY is part of the concern, why waste your time with a small part of the traffic that has plenty of experience on the water instead of with the majority of the traffic who may have no experience. I understand they are making a living on a public waterway and there should be some kind of regulation, it just seems to be more about genrating revenue then regulating traffic. If SAFETY isn't not part of the equation, why isn't it just a fee you pay? I just think the entire things smells of generating revenue and nothing else. I am all for some kind of regulation, just call it a user fee/permit and not a licensing/safety thing.

[cdsaeger]

I think your right on half-dutch. There should be some license requirements for all operators like a driver's license with additional requirements depending on size & use of that watercraft. People that have been fishing the river since childhood are probably safer than the guy in the 30 ft. cruiser entertaining people for the weekend. There should be levels for the commercial license too depending on the number of people and size of boat you will be running. Lastly, for those putting the time and money into the license they should teach you something about being safer on the water. Not to spoil anyones fun, but the safety rules need to be more uniform and communicated to all that are trying to enjoy these beautiful waters.

[croixflats]

Opening a can of worms IMO. Whats next a licence for ATV then whats after that ? Licensing the weekenders wont stop the stupidity or the lack of common sense on the water or courtesy. If licensing was the answer driving a car should be safe free of dummies on the road but you still see people texting or people talking on the phone or other dumb things.

[Big Buck Buster]

Opening a can of worms IMO. Whats next a licence for ATV then whats after that ? Licensing the weekenders wont stop the stupidity or the lack of common sense on the water or courtesy. If licensing was the answer driving a car should be safe free of dummies on the road but you still see people texting or people talking on the phone or other dumb things.

Exactly!!!

[Scott M]

River guides are forced back to school

by Dennis Anderson, Star Tribune

If you're looking for a fishing or hunting guide on the St. Croix, Mississippi or Minnesota rivers, look again. And again. Chances are you won't find one. Most, it turns out, have been sidelined -- temporarily, if not permanently -- by the U.S. Coast Guard and its decision to enforce federal licensing requirements on those waters.

The Coast Guard's efforts in recent weeks have sidelined some of the state's biggest names in guiding, including Richard (Griz) Grzywinski of St. Paul. Griz is among the best and most experienced multi-species guides in the state. In recent years, due to his advancing age and the resurgence of walleye populations in metro regions of the Mississippi and St. Croix, he has concentrated more on these waters and less on lakes up north.

Griz is one of as many as 30 guides who have been contacted as far south as Iowa by Twin Cities-based Coast Guard representatives. Virtually none have the "Six Pack'' license the Coast Guard requires of anyone carrying passengers for pay on these waters.

Griz, who supports himself guiding, has lost more than a month's work since the Coast Guard contacted him. "I guess I have to take the course to get the license,'' he said. "I make my living off those rivers. I haven't gone to school in a long time and hardly read anymore. But I'm going to have to take the course if I want to work.''

To attain a license, guides must attend a course given by independent contractors -- community colleges, in some instances -- lasting about 60 hours. Additionally, prospective licensed guides must know CPR and must agree to submit to random drug tests. A special work permit intended, basically, to screen terroristic fishing and hunting guides also must be obtained.

Total cost: about $1,000.

"They say if you don't have a license and you get caught guiding, the penalty is $10,000 a day,'' Griz said.

Coast Guard Chief Warrant Officer John Nay said Thursday the effort -- some call it a crackdown -- became a priority this summer for the six Coast Guard officers stationed at Fort Snelling. Nay's office reports to one in St. Louis, and apparently the guide-compliance directive came from there.

"The waters we're concerned with in Minnesota are the Minnesota, the Mississippi to its headwaters, and the St. Croix River to Taylors Falls,'' Nay said.

Nay said he and others in his office, along with members of the local Coast Guard Auxiliary, have used the Internet and other means this summer to locate guides working on these rivers. They've also visited bait shops and marinas in an attempt to find guides.

"Because ours is a small office, we haven't enforced this requirement in the past,'' Nay said. "Basically, since 9/11 we've been involved with more security issues. Now we've been trying to educate guides about the requirement and notify them that if they don't comply and they are caught on the water or we learn of their operations, an enforcement action can be taken.''

Griz said the Coast Guard representative who called his house was abrupt, if not rude, when informing him that he needed to be licensed. Another guide who asked not to be named said he received a call instructing him to "Get off the river immediately.''

Nay said that to his knowledge, no Coast Guard auxiliary member has contacted guides personally. Most auxiliary members are retirees, or nearly so, who own their own boats and want to participate in Coast Guard work as volunteers.

In June the Coast Guard began training auxiliary members, who then joined with active duty officers in identifying guides to contact.

When a guide was contacted, he or she was asked if they wanted to "submit to an inspection,'' Nay said.

Most said no once they realized they could pass the inspection only if they held a Six Pack license.

Taking a course isn't a prerequisite to submitting to the Coast Guard exam, Nay said. But the test would be difficult to pass without formal preparation. A CPR course also is recommended in advance of the test, say some who have taken it and become licensed.

"Grandfathering in'' experienced guides isn't possible, Nay said.

Also, licensed guides are welcome to -- if not encouraged to -- snitch on unlicensed guides to the Coast Guard, Nay conceded. Some guides who have lost business and income in recent weeks since the Coast Guard's effort began say that's what has occurred in this case.

Whether that's true is beside the point, Nay suggested.

"If someone hires a guide to go on one of these rivers, there is a level of professionalism that is expected on behalf of the client,'' he said. "The client is expecting the guide to have a level of expertise.'' For that to happen, licensing of guides is necessary, Nay said.

Maybe. But making a living also is necessary, and many of the guides involved -- Griz is one -- have been working for decades with little to show for it in terms of money. But their clienteles are happy. And I can't remember an incident involving a fishing guide anywhere in Minnesota in which a client was hurt.

The Coast Guard could have implemented its new program and enforcement effort more gradually, it seems, allowing guides to finish out their summers in advance of taking the first Six Pack course, which isn't available until later this fall.

As Griz said, "They sure threw a wrench into my summer, I'll tell you that.''

[Jiggin4eyes62]

That is one of the most rediculous things I have heard. Guides turning in other guides. If the Griz has been on the water as long as he has, I would put my life in his hands any day.

[jigginjim]

JIggin4eyes, Believe it, I know a few guides that whine about guys(guides) not having the C.G. paper. Some guys still guide on the St. croix flying under the radar. I got the new TWIC card required for river guides. I guide on many lakes that don't have the requirement. But I'm sure that will change soon also.

[PierBridge]

Sounds like the Griz ddn't pass the 6-Pak test this time around.

[leech~~]

What's to stop a guy from just going fishing everyday with some of the 1,000's of "friends" they have!

[JohnMickish]

What's to stop a guy from just going fishing everyday with some of the 1,000's of "friends" they have!

A Coast Gaurd interview and this thing called purgery.

[deadeye]

Thats exactly what I was thinking leech. Kinda sick the Griz is off the river, especially since he knows the river better than the coast gaurd ever will.

I took the time to read the whole thread and its kind of a sketchy deal, but the law is the law. I hate to see it that way but there is little chance of getting them to go backwards on that stuff. I just hope he is able to pass the test the next time around.

[leech~~]

It sounds like the 6 pack was made up more for Off shore Guides which is understandable for what conditions they have to work in. But, they really should have two, one for Off shore and In-shore guides. It's night and day between the two bodies of water.

[deadeye]

Thats kinda my thinking. I cant really understand why they would do that. Take the mississippi by my house in bc and compare it to somewhere like mille lacs. I would rather have a certified guide on mille lacs over the river any day.

But what do you do? It is what it is. I guess it never hurts to have a little more education. I have a backcountry guide certificate and I can say even with all my outdoor experience prior to that I still learned a couple things from all those courses. I would do the 6 pack just to have it but its so expensive I couldn't justify it unless I started guiding again (it has been a few years). If they lowered the cost on it, it would be a lot more reasonable at least to me.

[leech~~]

deadeye, so you were a guide once, and you live in BC by me. Huum what kind of ice fishing do you do?

[deadeye]

I got out of it a while ago before I got too deep into it. Ice fishing is after work on the way home mostly. I work in hopkins and drive up 169 so you can guess where I frequent. My freinds always joke that they are going fishing with a guide but being that its a hobby now its much more fun. I don't catch nearly as many fish but when Im not on the water every day its hard to stay in tune to whats going on.

[leech~~]

So you really don't make many trips northward during the winter? Shoot, here I thought I found a guide I could hook up with! I do a lot of running with a sled and porty up north Mily, brainerd, etc.

[deadeye]

Ya, I haven't been up north much in the past couple years with the cost of gas and lack of a job. If I were to guide, it would be in the DL area or up in Ely. I think I must have been to every lake in the ely area (it seems like I at least tried to anyway). There is such a sweet personality to each lake there that its awesome. Its just a long ways away.

Besides, when I can go out for a hour or two after work and catch enough eye's and crappies for dinner why drive a couple hours to do it? Just like the Griz said, some of the best fishing in the state is right here in the metro.

[Down Deep]

I went online a read about the 6-pack and it is mainly aimed at operators of big rigs. I know all the boats we hire in Alaska for ocean fishing the captains all have them. My take on this is that the Coast Guard doesn't have a category for small time guides operating in patrolled waters so they get lumped into what they have. The small timers aren't organized in any type of association so they have no legislative punch which could create a lesser requirement.

I pay over $2K a year for licenses, permits and surcharges on my utility bills for services listed as "other" on my bills to keep my business open. Can I get some of this sympathy lumped on me?