The Griz is not allowed to continue Guiding...

[Sandmannd]

Now I can believe a lot of things Dan, but the fact that you were a teen only 20 years ago ain't one of 'em!!

[bwana_d]

If you are interested, here is the list of Federally Navigable waters - http://www.uscg.mil/d9/D9Legal/water/minnesota.pdf.

I am surprised by Basswood, Cannon River, Root River, Snake River. Can someome confirm that it applies to these as well if this is the right list?

Thanks,

[justinman]

Not sure if this matters to many of you or not but having this Coast Guard certification has been the law for quite awhile now. This is nothing new, didn't come out of the woodwork, or should not come as a surprise to those who are guiding without it.

Sort of like drinking underage with a fake ID, you know its illegal but you'll do it until you are caught.

IMO... reason the CG is cracking down now is they are being pressured by those who have complied with the law.

In the state of Minnesota, there are only a handful of bodies of water that this applies to. If you don't want the privilige to run a commercial business on these few bodies of water, there are 10,000 other lakes you can do it on.

Well said Hanson, it just part of the cost of doing business. The cost of the certifications get past on down anyway as part of the fee the consumer pays for the guide. Those who want to skate by without the certification are looking to add more to their bottom line. It's as simple as that.

[bturck]

I'm not going to get into the river license requirements however from a business standpoint if I were guiding on a lake system, lets say Alexandria or Brainerd lakes area and being compensated for my time as an advertised guide service, I would carry insurance wether its required or not. It is a business expense and deductible from your tax filings. Lets say no insurance and you have an incident on the lake where the boat capsizes and a person drowns, by the time the courts get done with the civil liability lawsuit you won't own anything of value. to me it would be a no brainer investment and part of doing business regardless of any mandates.

[federline]

I have to agree with dtro - I think these requirements are too steep for fishing guides in MN. May be fine for a capt ferrying 50 people around or pushing a barge, but not fishing guides. C'mon. Where's the common sense. This isn't the Altantic seaboard or Superior, its inland Minnesota rivers for crying out loud.

Insurance is an entirely separate matter than this nonsense - anyone positioning themselves as a business putting clients in conceivable personal risk should have insurance, as well as be incorporated to shield their person from lawsuits and losing the farm.

[Sandmannd]

Guiding and not having insurance is not a good choice. You don't want to do that with any business you are running.

I don't understand why a river guide needs a license that qualifies you for a 100 ton vessel and six people. Why not have a smaller "Fishing Guide" license? One you can only run up to say a 10 ton vessel or not over 30 feet and carry 3 people. That would cover probably 99% of river guides I would say.

[jigginjim]

Guiding and not having insurance is not a good choice. You don't want to do that with any business you are running.

The first thing I did to start my guide service was hire a lawyer. Then have my business incorperated, they can sue the guide service, not me. It protects my personal assests, they can take the boat and equipment, but not my home.

[harvey lee]

There are alot of careers out there where you have to carry a license that shows you are qualified, why is everyone against it in this case. My license cost me more than a couple hundred bucks and a few days in class. If the law says you need one, you need one. If the USCG is the one inforcing it then it's not just a MN thing.

Why should some people be exempt from it? Do you go to an unlicensed doctor? Would you have an unliscensed plumber or electrician fix your house? How about drivers, what if nobody got a liscense anymore? Wouldn't that be the same thing?

I agree with John on this 100%.

[Sandmannd]

I agree guides should be licensed, but then why only river guides? Why not make ALL guides get a license?

[fishmon]

does anyone know the stats of injuries, accidents or deaths caused by or with fishing guides on inland waters?

[Sandmannd]

Griz has been on that river for 30 years. I haven't heard of an accident with him. I actually haven't heard of an accident with a guide that I can remember. When you are out there with others in your boat (reguardless if guiding or not) you dang well better take care of them and I believe most do.

What kills me is you need this license for the river, but a 19 year old can pilot a 20 person launch on Mille Lacs with nothing.

[jigginjim]

The guys operating launches on Mille lacs do have to have a pilots qualification, which is required by the state. It is for ALL boats over 20ft long.

[bturck]

Guides on Mille Lacs definitley have a license to operate that launch it is displayed in the wheel house by law.

[harvey lee]

If the law states one needs the license, then the Griz should not be allowed without one. Does not matter if he is the best anywhere or has 100 years of expierence.

He needs to play by the same rules as all the other guides.

Thats only fair.

[Ed Carlson]

The Red River also requires the same USCG certification as LOTW, Rainy, Mississippi and Missouri Rivers. All guides be they from ND or MN or anywhere... need to certify to operate on the Red River of the North as it is still listed as a waterway of commerce under the controle of the USCG. I went through the training and certification process also to maintain my guiding license eligibility on the Red.

Although there is no barge or commercial or shipping traffic on the Red river of the North on the US side, it is still managed as such, hence the requirements. Even though I guide most my trips from a boat well under 18', it is still required. Guides are considered commercial traffic, so they must have the certification and training to operate on all USCG controlled waterways.

If I ever start pushing a 200 ton barge up the Red for cats..I'm covered too.

[Coach1310]

If the law states one needs the license, then the Griz should not be allowed without one. Does not matter if he is the best anywhere or has 100 years of expierence.

He needs to play by the same rules as all the other guides.

Thats only fair.

I agree 100% with you Harvey. He shouldn't be guiding without the proper license. My issue is that any average Joe can take his speedboat out and go flying up and down the river and put everyone in danger, but we seem to add a license or certificate or whatever to the businesses. It sure seems like they are always looking for ways to add $$$ to the bottom line and I guess I don't see this making the waterways a LOT safer. You can have licenses and certificates all you want. I'll take the guy with the most common sense anyday. Just my opinion.....

[jigginjim]

Quote:

My issue is that any average Joe can take his speedboat out and go flying up and down the river and put everyone in danger, but we seem to add a license or certificate or whatever to the businesses. It sure seems like they are always looking for ways to add $$$ to the bottom line and I guess I don't see this making the waterways a LOT safer. You can have licenses and certificates all you want. I'll take the guy with the most common sense anyday.

I'll agree, I have had guys with come past me going over 80mph on the river under hiway 5 bridge, that's maybe the narrowest part of the river. Also some guys operating big boats(28 ft and larger) have NO clue what they are doing. Just fire it up, and everybody else just get out of the way>

[harvey lee]

That guy will get tagged sooner or later. The guide needs to follow the law just like the unsafe boater.

Just because one is not safe does not mean another should not have to follow the laws.

If you see another being unsafe on the public waters, simply call the law or get his license and report him. If none reports him, yes, he will contiune to be unsafe.

We do have a choice as a boater to get involved.

[hanson]

I agree 100% with you Harvey. He shouldn't be guiding without the proper license. My issue is that any average Joe can take his speedboat out and go flying up and down the river and put everyone in danger, but we seem to add a license or certificate or whatever to the businesses. It sure seems like they are always looking for ways to add $$$ to the bottom line and I guess I don't see this making the waterways a LOT safer. You can have licenses and certificates all you want. I'll take the guy with the most common sense anyday. Just my opinion.....

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand...

If you hire this average Joe to give joyrides on the river, he needs to be certified just like everyone else.

If the Griz wants to go fishing on his own with family, he doesn't need the same certification.

Its about regulating commercial commerce on a navigable body of water. Its not about fishing, its not about guiding, its about those who operate commercially on that body of water. Your right in that it probably has nothing to do with safety, but it has everything to do with those who want to make money operating on these waters.

[cdsaeger]

Yes, I'd like to get more information, and what they feel is required.

Wonder who stirred the pot on this to make it important all of a sudden, and who's going to train the other drivers on the river to be safe?

thanks

[DuckDog]

Originally Posted By: Northlander

I agree with this and here's where I have the problem with this law. You can guide pretty much anywhere in the MN on any lake without a license. I can see a need for it, but it shouldn't be $1,000 to get it either. The classes alone are $750 and you have to take off work as they are 56 hours mandatory. They you still have to pay for the licenses. Basically when you get this license you are pretty equal to a barge capt. What's the point of that? There are so many morans on that river in Pleasure boats that are 30 - 80 feet long that NEED to be licensed. I've seen more close calls from them than a person in an 18' fishing boat. Most fisherman, guide or not, are the responsible boaters out on the water. Not all, there are still knuckleheads.

I don't have a problem with the laws but $1000 to get into the license is a little steep.

Most service related businesses need to have a license - I see this as no different. Construction, food service and others all have to "take a class" before they can operate.

[Shack]

I look at it this way, there are good reasons behind getting Coast Guard certified/licensed to be able to guide the river. It just seems right with all the commercial traffic and other obstacles the river(s) poses down here.

Then you have your regular Jo boater to contend with, but (which IMO being on Pool 2, the MN and the Croix more than any other body of water during open water) are not that bad. I will put money on boaters that run the rivers, verses boaters on a public lake any day. It takes a special kind of person to back into a launch on Pool 2 anyways IMO. I have been running the river for awhile now, and during all conditions of the season, and mostly at night. I can not recall any other pleasure craft, commercial vessel or fishing boat causing anything that dropped my jaw (I do not get over to the Croix much though and mostly after dark if I am). Most that use the river are on their guard and pretty professional (at least appear to be). I take the river seriously. I have even been told by barge captains to loosen up on protocol when communicating via VHF.

Anyone remarking about having the regular Jo's licensed because a Guide for hire has to be, you must not enjoy boating/fishing the river then. Although a good idea and it would cut down the traffic tremendously, but I do think that is taking things a little too far.

I just figure the rules are the rules. I personally would never go as far as to turn in a person who is guiding on Fed. waters, but when I look at the recent rise of Earl's List ad's for guiding on the river (cats also), it makes a guy think (these ad's have no mention of insurance, bonded, references or cert's of any kind. To me if someone has these, they would be mentioned and is not, makes me thinks they do not have them ) For one, those who have obtained the USCG six pack with honors, have done the right thing(s), have to contend/compete with riff-raff that can not get them selves together enough to get it done (or at least pull the trigger, which in book is worth something).

For two, why does some 18 year old kid get to guide the easy way for cats, when if I wanted to guide, the only option would be the right and legal way (I say 18 cause they look all of it and maybe do not know, or maybe do not care). Heck, if you look hard enough, these easy-bake guides even post images of their clients in their boat with their catch in their ad's. A couple I have seen, the captain is standing back by the transom and (I have to assume at least 16' boat even if not for hire) I do not even see a throw-able, let alone one life vest. Only the alumn. bench seats, pop cans, a rod, maybe a net, cooler and then the client pulling the gill hold.

Good for the sheriff, Coast Guard, DNR or who ever for cracking down on this. Too bad the Griz had to be an example (always figured he was legit Still kind of puzzled by this/that), but a perfect example to get the word spread

[Shack]

I was actually reading this thread over again:

but then why only river guides? Why not make ALL guides get a license?

Very simple answer: U.S. jurisdiction over State Jurisdiction

On state juristic-ed waters (Like said, minus sole-state- waters like Mille Lacs and Minnetonka), guides pretty much just have to do what is needed to CYA them selves in an event of being sued and follow state boating regulations. The state of MN regulates the laws and regulations in this case. On sole-state-waters like ML, then the 20' or more rule comes into play.

On a U.S. juristic-ed waters, it is a whole other ball of wax (like said about 20 times so far) with the United States Coast Guard (USCG) regulating the laws and saying what is and is not need of a commercial vessel like the un-inspected passenger vessels (UPV/6 passengers or under (6-pack) commercially operated).

Originally Posted By: Hanson

Your right in that it probably has nothing to do with safety, but it has everything to do with those who want to make money operating on these waters.

So tell me Hanson, where can I go, just drop a set amount and pick-up the six-pack cert's, as quick as I would with a cold one from the LQ It is a business like others have said! It is not just a formality, a hassle, a wink-wink "you look OK, go ahead" thing like when Eddy Murphy got the free newspaper in that SNL skit . "here, just take it. It's ok"

IMO it is all about Safety and learning how to be safe when operating a craft and doing so commercially on US regulated waters. Pretty much a step up like from the minors (state) to the majors (US water).

When you hop in Uncle Fred's boat with your wife or kids up at the cabin, you pretty much are under the full knowledge that Uncle Fred is not Capt. William D. Bowell who piloted the J Paddleford for years. He is a free ride. You are going to get just that, in hopes of making back to the dock (which you will).

You board a boat with your wife or kids with a guide/captain like the Griz, most would be expecting that captain to be piloting that boat with the same credentials as Capt. William D. Bowell or at least the currant captain of the J Paddleford Captain Jim Kosmo (edit note:You get my drift ) . You are paying money now to be as safe-as- you-can, from a reputable source, where the USCG certification is needed. Not to mention its on a fast moving river with current.

Maybe I am wrong, but I see it having to "all" to do with safety (with a little bit of they want to know who you are, home land security stuff). I have not gone threw the schooling/course yet, but this is what I have picked up on from those I know who have and others in the knowing. When going from a privet to a commercial airline pilot, is this just a formality or is safety involved? Figure I would pull Hanson's chain a little

[jigginjim]

After talking with another guide from lake pepin, the coast guide seems more interested in collecting more money from people guiding. This is not going to renew his license, due to the added costs that coast guard are adding to fishing guides. He is another guide that would guide lakes, then put up with the red tape all over again.

I have my tag but only do a few trips a year, license is in the works only need a couple more things and its complete. After reading the reasons to be disqualified, if a few guys I know get the card I'm not doing anyting more. Cause then I know its a JOKE!!!!

The Coast Guard should also be Tagging the guys that sit below the ford dam, inside the no entry area.

[PierBridge]

For the record and this is coming from every person I know who has the 6 pack license. You will be greatly disapointed if you think this License/class will teach you anything about being a better, safer boater on the river. It won't.

Now like stated above the law is the law so you have to have it but after weighing in all the data I'm covinced this requirment and the hoops they put you through is a bit over the top say the least.

I'll take the Griz and others like him over 90 percent of the 6 pack ceritfied captains with my well being on the river anyday and Sunday!

But you guys are right the laws is law so one must comply...