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WaitForIt

Land purchase - is this a good deal?

15 posts in this topic

Location: near Windom, MN (Cottonwood county)

~38 ac

Lakeshore on shallow (6ft avg. depth) 'green' lake - not a great deal of recreational value

The land consists of 28 acres rolling CRP and about 8-9ac of forest along the lake.

Asking price: $50k (appraised tax 2009 value is $40k)

CRP payments: $2500/yr, just renewed for 10 years in 2008

taxes: ~$250/yr

The CRP portion of the land is planted in native grasses and holds pheasant and some deer. I am primarily interested in this as a buy and hold investment, I would probably get out there to hunt pheasant 2-3 times and maybe a weekend deer hunt with bow and arrow but thats it. It is not my ideal property from a strictly hunting viewpoint.

I am having a hard time pricing land out that way - I see anything from $3k/ac for prime farmland down to $1200/ac for marginal lands. I am assuming this land is the latter, though I'd have to see the soil maps for sure. It was farmed at some point in the past but has been in CRP as long as I can remember.

The land is owned by my uncle who due to financial circumstances has to sell quickly. I am assuming that he has consulted a realtor and was advised that non-farmable land is a tough sell right now and he cannot wait. I am sure his asking price was derived from what listing would be minus realtor fees. In other words, I don't feel that he is really offering a huge family discount.

Would you buy it? I'm really hoping someone with experience owning CRP lands will stumble across this topic.

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Hey Waitforit,

Being a Realtor in North-central MN, I deal with alot of different types of property, including bare land (no bldgs)

Based on what you said, why would you spend more than the appraised value? Is there something there that makes it more valuable? As far as investments go, in Real Estate you make money when you buy low and sell high. Based on what you have described, and knowing the market, the price seems a little on the high side

It all comes down to the sellers Motivation... If he wants to sell bad enough, he will drop the price. If he wants top dollar, he will be waiting a while in todays market.

If you have any questions, drop me a PM

phil@firstrealtybemidji.com

Fishfanatic

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I'm really not willing to overpay - we are just starting the discussion. The problem is that I don't put a lot of faith in the county tax value in either direction up or down. There are so few sales in the area that it seems valuation may be a guess at this point.

That being said, given $2500/yr in CRP income what would be a price at which this becomes a no-brainer?

I suppose the best step I can take is to shop for other properties with CRP income and compare. I don't expect that appreciation on this land would do much other than track inflation over the long haul.

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i would test him a bit see how willing he is to sell, if he wants it gone like they said before he will sell

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Land is very wise investment in my book but if they are asking for more then what the appraisal is that just means he wants to get min of what it's worth. No one gives acutal price as an offer. High ball low ball and settles around what it's worth in my book.

CRP if it's 2500 a year for 28 acres which comes to 89.29 an acre. Friends of mine have it in for over 100 which seems a bit low to me for the income off of the land. Sure it's still nice to get almost 90 but just stating a fact what others are getting.

Is there a potential for putting a house out there to over look the lake? Big thing up in my neck of the woods are the little "Swamps/Sloughs" are getting bought up because it looks roustic (sp?).

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As a duck hunter, if the pond/slough is capable of sustaining water year round, and you can duck hunt it, and it is fully yours, that would make that piece of property more valuable than other similar but not the same pieces.

Good luck whichever way you go. Interest is relatively low right now, which helps you out.

edit - I just reread and see it is not a lake/pond that is fully surrounded by the land for sale. Still could be good for duck hunting, if you do that sort of thing, but not as valuable as a land locked lake.

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Location: near Windom, MN (Cottonwood county)

~38 ac

Lakeshore on shallow (6ft avg. depth) 'green' lake - not a great deal of recreational value

The land consists of 28 acres rolling CRP and about 8-9ac of forest along the lake.

Asking price: $50k (appraised tax 2009 value is $40k)

CRP payments: $2500/yr, just renewed for 10 years in 2008

taxes: ~$250/yr

The CRP portion of the land is planted in native grasses and holds pheasant and some deer. I am primarily interested in this as a buy and hold investment, I would probably get out there to hunt pheasant 2-3 times and maybe a weekend deer hunt with bow and arrow but thats it. It is not my ideal property from a strictly hunting viewpoint.

I am having a hard time pricing land out that way - I see anything from $3k/ac for prime farmland down to $1200/ac for marginal lands. I am assuming this land is the latter, though I'd have to see the soil maps for sure. It was farmed at some point in the past but has been in CRP as long as I can remember.

The land is owned by my uncle who due to financial circumstances has to sell quickly. I am assuming that he has consulted a realtor and was advised that non-farmable land is a tough sell right now and he cannot wait. I am sure his asking price was derived from what listing would be minus realtor fees. In other words, I don't feel that he is really offering a huge family discount.

Would you buy it? I'm really hoping someone with experience owning CRP lands will stumble across this topic.

Wait for it - I live in a rural area - Kandiyohi county - and am always looking for some hunting land, I like to keep my pulse on the price of land in case I see a bargain. Two years ago I ended up buying 40 acres next to me, it had 21 acres of cropland and the rest swamp and marginal land. I probably overpaid at $2200 an acre but its not every day you get the opportunity to buy the farm next door. Plus it would have killed me to watch a big farmer come in with a dozer and big backhoe and take out all the trees and wetland. My thoughts:

1) Theres a big, big difference between asking price and selling price!!! Asking price is determined by the realtor - the best way for them to get the listing is to promise a high price. Make the listing agent show you some comparable sales in that area that justify the price. Better yet, goto the assesors office and do your own research, they have a book of sales within the last 6 months by township, and they can even help you look back farther. Find other comparable properties with a mix of farmland and marginal land, to me thats the market value and should determine what you're willing to pay.

2) While you're at the assesors office, talk to the assessor about that property, whats happening with land values, etc. Assesed (tax) value usually lags behind sales, if land is going up, a year later your assessed value will go up, if land values go down, your assessed value will go down. To me, assessed value is not a true indicator of actual value, it just a ball park figure. Also, you used the term 'appraised' value - appraised value is not the same as assesed value!!! An appraisel is when a paid appraiser determines the value of a piece of property by doing what I described in number one, going to the assessors office. I once hired an appraiser to appraise my property that I was selling myself, but I wouldn't do it again - because I know that I can goto the assessors office and do it myself.

3) How close are you to a large city? If you're within 25-30 miles of a large city, your investment value goes up for someone to buy and build a house on. Thats what is driving up land values in this area.

4) Any farmland/CRP follows the price of corn. When oil jumped, and then corn jumped to $7 a bushel, the price of land jumped. Now when corn is back down to less than $3 a bushel, farmers won't be out there buying up more land at high prices, so overall farm prices should go down from two years ago.

5) Remember that CRP payments come once a year, you'd have to make the monthly payments - but then you get a nice check in October.

$50,000/38=$1315 an acre, you wouldn't find much land around here for that!!! I'd say its a good buy, unless the CRP land is really steep. Get up to the assessors office in Cottonwood county!!

Good luck!! As you can see I'm passionate about this subject!! I just wish I had more money to invest!! Let me know if you have any more questions!

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BlackJ - I was thinking that price sounded pretty reasonable too. Two farms just sold next to our and were darn close to 4 g's an acre!

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Yeah...it depends on how badly you want some hunting land. If it is good for pheasant and waterfowl, might not be a bad little hunting parcel.

Just gets down to how much you are willing to pay for it and what you expect to get. You didn't indicate if you had the cash for it, or would have to finance it (and you certainly don't need to reveal that...but it does make a difference).

You said $2500 CRP payments, with a $250 tax pmt each year. Leaving out other expenses, that gives you net revenue of $2250 each year. If you put in the cash yourself, and don't need to finance anything, that is a 4.5% cash-on-cash return on your $50k. Not a bad deal for a hunting parcel.

If you need to finance it, you will probably end up needing to make payments above the CRP revenue. $2000 per year for payments on a 15-year loan will support somewhere in the neighborhood of $20,000 in present-value debt. So, if you have to finance more than about $20k, you will end up needing to come up with extra money to make the payments (a couple hundred dollars per month, give or take).

Financing $50k in its entirety (and you will be hard pressed to find a lender to finance more than about 80%) would result in monthly payments of around $400-$450, depending on interest rate. $2250 per year CRP revenue comes out to about $190 per month, so you end up needing to come up with around another $250 per month...

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Can I ask what lake this is on? Iam not going to try to steal it out from you just from that area.

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Has he mentioned this to other people that you may have to bid against?

DD

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Yeah...it depends on how badly you want some hunting land. If it is good for pheasant and waterfowl, might not be a bad little hunting parcel.

Just gets down to how much you are willing to pay for it and what you expect to get. You didn't indicate if you had the cash for it, or would have to finance it (and you certainly don't need to reveal that...but it does make a difference).

You said $2500 CRP payments, with a $250 tax pmt each year. Leaving out other expenses, that gives you net revenue of $2250 each year. If you put in the cash yourself, and don't need to finance anything, that is a 4.5% cash-on-cash return on your $50k. Not a bad deal for a hunting parcel.

If you need to finance it, you will probably end up needing to make payments above the CRP revenue. $2000 per year for payments on a 15-year loan will support somewhere in the neighborhood of $20,000 in present-value debt. So, if you have to finance more than about $20k, you will end up needing to come up with extra money to make the payments (a couple hundred dollars per month, give or take).

Financing $50k in its entirety (and you will be hard pressed to find a lender to finance more than about 80%) would result in monthly payments of around $400-$450, depending on interest rate. $2250 per year CRP revenue comes out to about $190 per month, so you end up needing to come up with around another $250 per month...

Good evaluation Jarrod!!! You have to figure out what your monthly payments will be, which is dependent upon your down payment and interest rates, subtract the income, and then decide if that monthly payment is worth it. I will say that its easier to justify if you're going to build a house on that parcel, might as well get some recreational land to go with your building lot.

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i would purchase before the DNR does, they are buying about 120 acres by Sanborn, even thought they are broke. They drive up the price of land.

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I think this is a decent purchase in my opinion. Whatever the case, if you use it, enjoy it, and find it something that helps with your stressful life, its a GREAT deal. Life is too short to sit around and think about the "what if's". If you can afford it jump on it! Good luck!

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I would agree, good deal. How much are you throwing into your 401k a month,the real question is can you use your 401k now, and is it making money or at least staying even?

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    • Minnesota DNR News
      For Immediate Release:
      July 21, 2017
      In This Issue

      Conserving Mille Lacs walleye population requires regulation changes

      Mille Lacs Lake Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for summer 2017

      Conserving Mille Lacs walleye population requires regulation changes

      Walleye fishing on Mille Lacs Lake will remain closed until Aug. 11 to protect the walleye fishery, and ensure its long-term health and sustainability into the future

      To extend the walleye fishing season through Labor Day, the state will allow for an additional 11,000 pounds of walleye harvest on Mille Lacs 

      New solutions are being sought to rebuild and sustain a healthy Mille Lacs walleye fishery

      New fisheries data collected by the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources show the total safe harvest allocation for walleyes on Mille Lacs Lake (44,800 pounds) has already been exceeded this season. To protect the fishery and ensure the long-term sustainability of Mille Lacs Lake’s walleye population, the DNR announced today that walleye fishing will remain closed until Friday, Aug. 11.

      In order to extend the walleye fishing season through Labor Day, the state will allow for an additional 11,000 pounds of walleye harvest. Catch-and-release walleye fishing will run from Friday, Aug. 11, through Monday, Sept. 4, for the Labor Day weekend. Walleye fishing will then be closed from Tuesday, Sept. 5, through Thursday, Nov. 30.

      As these regulation changes were announced, Minnesota DNR Commissioner Tom Landwehr reiterated the state’s commitment to rebuilding and sustaining a healthy walleye fishery in Mille Lacs Lake.

      “Improving the walleye population in Mille Lacs is a top priority for the DNR,” Landwehr said. “We deeply regret the hardships these new regulations will cause for anglers and business owners. But they are essential to protect and enhance the future of walleye fishing in the lake for future generations. We will continue doing everything we can to understand the challenges facing the walleye fishery, and take whatever actions we can to resolve this very difficult situation.”

      Landwehr and DNR fisheries chief Don Pereira noted that allowing for additional catch-and-release fishing in August is essential for area anglers, businesses, and Mille Lacs area communities. The decision to allow for this additional harvest was made with input from the Mille Lacs Fisheries Advisory Committee.

      “We want to allow as much walleye fishing on Mille Lacs as possible,” Pereira said. “So even though state anglers already have caught their quota of fish, the DNR will dip into the allowed conservation overage to reopen the season on Aug. 11.”

      Through the closure, anglers on Mille Lacs Lake may fish for all other species in the lake including bass, muskellunge and northern pike. When fishing for other species, only artificial baits and lures will be allowed in possession, except for anglers targeting northern pike or muskie, who may fish with sucker minnows longer than 8 inches.

      A prohibition on night fishing will remain in place from 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. through Nov. 30. However, anglers may fish for muskie and northern pike at night, but may only use artificial lures longer than 8 inches or sucker minnows longer than 8 inches. Bowfishing for rough fish also is allowed at night but possession of angling equipment is not allowed and only rough fish may be in possession.

      Understanding walleye fishing quotas on Mille Lacs this year, and why that quota was reached earlier than predicted
      The DNR and the Chippewa bands that cooperatively manage Mille Lacs Lake agreed this year to harvest quotas of 44,800 pounds for state anglers and 19,200 pounds for tribal fishing. They also agreed that up to 75,000 pounds of walleye could be harvested from the lake from Dec. 1, 2016 to Nov. 30, 2017.

      That agreement allows the state to use a built-in buffer – the 11,000 pounds difference between the 75,000 pounds conservation cap and the 64,000 pounds combined harvest quotas – in an attempt to allow catch-and-release walleye fishing through Labor Day, following the mid-summer closure. Bi-weekly creel surveys show that state anglers already have reached their quota.

      “The DNR is using its full allotment to maximize opportunities to fish for walleye on Mille Lacs without violating our agreement,” Pereira said. “The DNR, just like area businesses, would greatly prefer to not have fishing restrictions in place. But sustaining and stabilizing Mille Lacs’ walleye population is our primary obligation and public responsibility.”

      Continuing the walleye fishing closure will reduce the number of fish that die after being caught and released, a condition known as hooking mortality. The likelihood of fish suffering hooking mortality increases as water temperatures warm.

      High walleye catch rates on Mille Lacs have increased DNR fishing projections. A hot walleye bite attracted more anglers to the lake, resulting in angler effort that is about double what it was in 2016.

      “Cooler than normal temperatures kept hooking mortality rates low, but more anglers fished Mille Lacs, particularly catching walleye longer than 20 inches,” Pereira said. “That increased the poundage of fish caught and put us over our walleye quota.”

      According to the DNR, bigger fish are biting, in part, because there is a shortage of food for larger walleye. Last fall’s assessment showed that larger walleye were thinner than average.

      Mille Lacs’ hot bite also reflects the findings of studies done in many other fisheries that show catchability actually increases when fish population drops. In Mille Lacs, walleye congregate in preferred spots rather than disperse evenly throughout the lake. Fewer fish in the lake means there is more room in the preferred spots for fish to gather, creating a situation where a larger percentage of the population is in position to be caught rather than gathering in a less preferred but less fished area.

      More information about Mille Lacs Lake, the regulation adjustments and management of the fishery is available on the DNR page at www.mndnr.gov/millelacslake.

      New solutions are being sought to improve and sustain a healthy walleye fishery
      The DNR announced in June that a new external review team of scientists will take a fresh look at Mille Lacs Lake’s walleye fishery, using all of the best science available to gain a better understanding of the lake. This new review, led by walleye expert Dr. Chris Vandergoot of the U.S. Geological Survey, will provide additional recommendations to improve fisheries management of the lake, and contribute to a long-term solution to improving and sustaining a healthy walleye fishery for future generations. The group’s report is expected in time to help guide and inform fisheries management decisions for the 2018 season.

      DNR encourages Minnesotans to fish for other abundant species on Mille Lacs Lake
      As today’s walleye fishing regulation changes were announced, the DNR encouraged all Minnesotans to visit Mille Lacs Lake to fish the other abundant species that the lake has to offer. Mille Lacs Lake’s other opportunities for top-notch fishing will not be affected by the regulation adjustment.

      Bassmaster Magazine named Mille Lacs the nation’s best bass lake in June and will send 50 of the country’s best anglers to the lake In September for its Angler of the Year tournament. Northern pike abound in Mille Lacs, along with muskellunge. In early July, a woman from southern Minnesota caught and released in Mille Lacs what may have been Minnesota’s largest-ever muskellunge.

      To learn more about Mille Lacs Lake and its many great fishing opportunities, visit the DNR page. To plan visit to the Mille Lacs area, visit the Mille Lacs Area Tourism Council page.

      ###

      Mille Lacs Lake Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for summer 2017
      Q: What is happening with the walleye season this summer on Mille Lacs Lake?

      A: The closure that began July 8 and was set to end July 28 is being extended by two weeks. That means walleye fishing will reopen at 6:01 a.m. on Aug. 11 for catch-and-release only through Labor Day. A night fishing closure also will remain in place from 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. through Nov. 30.

      Q: How does this affect fishing for other species?

      A: Fishing regulations for other species such as smallmouth bass, muskie and northern pike remain the same. During the night closure, there is an exception for muskie and northern pike anglers using artificial lures and sucker minnows longer than 8 inches.

      Q: Why did the DNR extend the closure?

      A: While the DNR wants to allow as much walleye fishing on Mille Lacs as possible, the state is also required to abide by cooperative agreements made with eight American Indian Chippewa bands. The two weeks of additional closure allows the state to abide by a harvest quota set earlier this year with the bands.

      The DNR and the bands agreed to harvest quotas of 44,800 pounds for state anglers and 19,200 pounds for tribal fishing. They also agreed that up to 75,000 pounds of walleye could be sustainably harvested from the lake from Dec. 1, 2016 to Nov. 30, 2017 in order to conserve the population

      That agreement allows the state to use a built-in buffer – the 11,000 pounds difference between the conservation cap of 75,000 pounds and the combined harvest quota of 64,000 pounds – in an attempt to allow catch-and-release walleye fishing through Labor Day, following the mid-summer closure.

      The latest creel survey data shows that state anglers reached their quota of 44,800 pounds of walleye caught from Mille Lacs in early July. Even though state anglers already have caught their quota of fish, the DNR is dipping into the allowed conservation reserve in order to reopen the season on Aug. 11.

      Q: Why has the walleye population in Mille Lacs declined? What is the DNR doing in the long-term to try to conserve the population?

      A: The vast majority of walleye that hatch do not survive to their third autumn in the lake. Walleye numbers have declined to the point that it has become important to protect spawning-sized walleye, particularly the class of walleye that hatched in 2013. It is important to protect the large 2013 year class to replenish aging spawning stock.  Most males from the 2013 class are now mature, but females will not start to contribute in large numbers until next spring. The state is committed to conserving the population of walleyes born in 2013 to improve and rebuild a sustainable population for the future.

      Q: Why do we count hooking mortality during a closed walleye season?

      A: The amount that state anglers can kill (as spelled out in state-bands agreements) also must include fish that die as a result of hooking mortality, the fish that die after being caught and then released back into the water. During the closure, some anglers still catch walleye incidentally and some of those fish die after being released. Under the state-band agreements, those dead fish must be calculated and counted against the state’s allocation.

      Q: How did this cooperative management between the state and the bands of Mille Lacs Lake come to be?   

      A: Recall that in 1999, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld lower-court decisions that allowed the Mille Lacs band and seven other Chippewa bands to exercise off-reservation fishing and hunting rights. The lower federal court also set up guidelines, known as stipulations and protocols, for both sides to follow. These stipulations and protocols provide a framework for how the bands and the state must work cooperatively to manage shared natural resources, including Mille Lacs fish.  In their agreements, the DNR and the bands are required to annually establish the number of walleye that can safely be harvested from Mille Lacs while ensuring sufficient remaining walleye in the lake for a healthy fishery.

      Q: If the walleye population is in decline, why are anglers catching so many?

      A: Fish are biting for two reasons. First, there is a shortage of food for larger walleye. Last fall’s assessment showed that larger walleye were thinner than average. Second, studies in many fisheries show that catchability actually increases when fish population decline.

      In Mille Lacs, walleye congregate in preferred spots rather than disperse evenly throughout the lake. Fewer fish in the lake means there’s more room in the preferred spots for fish to gather, and anglers find these spots where they can catch a larger portion of fish. Finally, while the walleye population has decreased considerably (by half or more), the amount of fishing pressure has declined by a lot more. This means that there are more walleye per angler fishing Mille Lacs today.

      Q: How is the DNR using science and research to help the walleye population?

      A: Mille Lacs Lake is the most studied lake in Minnesota. It is also a complex and changing system. The agency conducts a large number of surveys on the lake annually. These surveys include assessing the abundance of young walleye; setting 52 nets to assess adult abundance; using fine-mesh nets each summer to determine abundance of food (prey fish) for walleye; and using interviews with anglers around the lake (called creel surveys) to estimate the number of fish anglers are catching. The DNR also periodically tags walleye and other species to provide actual population estimates. We are tagging bass this year in cooperation with angling groups, and will be tagging walleye in 2018 and 2019 when the 2013 year class will be reaching full maturity.

      Q: What is the purpose of the external review the DNR has initiated?

      A: The DNR has asked Dr. Chris Vandergoot to lead an independent review of the DNR’s scientific approaches to manage Mille Lacs Lake. Vandergoot is a key member of the international team that co-manages a very significant walleye fishery in Lake Erie. He works for the U.S. Geological Survey in the Sandusky Lake Erie Biological station in Ohio. His review report will be available to the public in early 2018 and will help inform fisheries management decisions for the 2018 season.

      Q: What does the future look like for Mille Lacs walleye?

      A: It is unlikely that Mille Lacs walleye production will return to the levels that state anglers enjoyed over 20 years ago.  The ecosystem of Mille Lacs is going through extreme change, starting with increased water clarity in the mid-1990s, to impacts today from aquatic invasive species such as spiny water flea and zebra mussels. Longer growing seasons are also helping some species such as smallmouth bass but may be hurting others. While walleye will still be abundant, the future fishery will be more diverse, offering angling opportunities for a greater variety of fish.

      ###
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