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walleye101

House passes "clean energy" bill

65 posts in this topic

No, this is NOT another post to debate global warming.

That subject has been beat to death on here multiple times with thousands of posts.

Now is the time to speak up where it actually counts. Just use a small portion of the energy it took to debate this issue here in the past to contact your Senator and demand that they put a stop to this nonsense. Get up to speed on this legislation to see what this is really going to cost us. It is time to take some action.

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This bill is twice the size of the farm bill, yet they want to push it through in two months. It took two years to get the farm bill put together.

This bill could potentially double the amount we pay for electricity in Minnesota, and send more manufacturing jobs overseas.

A pound of carbon is a pound of carbon. It doesn't matter if it is in the United States, or China. If other countries do not reduce their carbon emissions, then how much impact will this bill actually have? Companies in England were forced to reduce their emissions a few years ago, so they just moved their companies to another country. I could see the very same thing happening here.

I really hope the Senate does not pass this bill!

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Oh I'll be calling Senator Klobuchar alright. But dont think you will like what I be saying. A sample; Thanks for the good work and make sure your hands are free so you can cast a positive YEA for the clean energy bill.

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It would be great if we could take a poll and have everyone who wishes to pay more for energy to do so and pick up the tab for those who don't. This is NOT the time to increase the cost of living for anybody no matter what the reason. Once the economy picks up then start looking at bills like this...but not now.

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I thought the "annointed one" Obama promised no tax increases to anyone making under $250K.

This bill will not create jobs as they are promising and it will do nothing but be a tax hike to the common man. Manufacturing will become more and more expensive, energy costs will be passed on to the consumers, and ultimately, jobs will be shipped overseas. Way to go politicians!

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It would be great if we could take a poll and have everyone who wishes to pay more for energy to do so and pick up the tab for those who don't.

I bet we would see some backpeddling in a hurry if that provision was added to the bill... grin

The number of the bill is HR 2454. Google HR 2454 to see how your representative voted.

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Oh I'll be calling Senator Klobuchar alright. But dont think you will like what I be saying. A sample; Thanks for the good work and make sure your hands are free so you can cast a positive YEA for the clean energy bill.

Croix

That is certainly your option. I only want to remind everyone that, like it or not, she is our Senator to and needs to hear from us. Lord knows she has already heard from plenty who think like you.

Many folks I have been talking to don't seem to be aware of this bill at all and have no idea what is in it. It is like we have become numb to the volume of stuff being jambed down our throats lately and people have just given up.

All I am saying is that she needs to hear from both sides on these issues. We still have the right to be heard. I am pretty sure I know how she will vote already but she does need to know there is pleny of opposition and potential for significant backlash from the direction things are heading.

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Originally Posted By: croixflats
Oh I'll be calling Senator Klobuchar alright. But dont think you will like what I be saying. A sample; Thanks for the good work and make sure your hands are free so you can cast a positive YEA for the clean energy bill.

Croix

That is certainly your option. I only want to remind everyone that, like it or not, she is our Senator to and needs to hear from us. Lord knows she has already heard from plenty who think like you.

Many folks I have been talking to don't seem to be aware of this bill at all and have no idea what is in it. It is like we have become numb to the volume of stuff being jambed down our throats lately and people have just given up.

All I am saying is that she needs to hear from both sides on these issues. We still have the right to be heard. I am pretty sure I know how she will vote already but she does need to know there is pleny of opposition and potential for significant backlash from the direction things are heading.

This is the democratic party of landslide election losses. The problem is, by who? The GOP helped create this mess, also.

Britian did something like this and so did Spain. As predicted, the companies just moved. even if this is defeated in the senate, it's the psychology that goes with it. Why set up shop in America if i don't know what the politicians will do from day to day?

We cannot afford to lose the dwindling manufacturing base to china or india. We no longer produce anything. Only in the world of government is a loss of a 25 dollar an hour job being replaced by a n $8 an hour job a "saved" job.

These are the same people who break and destroy everything they touch. Are we stupid enough to believe that they can "fix" the climate, whatever that means??

People need to release themselves of the emotional attachment to BHO and start holding him accountable. the "Bush did it ,too" mantra has got to end esp. for a guy who ran on change.

At least GWB's supporters eventually saw the light

this is going to get bad. very bad. it's not if but when

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It would be great if we could take a poll and have everyone who wishes to pay more for energy to do so and pick up the tab for those who don't. This is NOT the time to increase the cost of living for anybody no matter what the reason. Once the economy picks up then start looking at bills like this...but not now.

Agreed, we cannot continue to raise the cost of living on everyone. It's getting harder and harder to afford to live. Where I work, times were tough, many of us got a 1 or 2% raise. I'm not complaining, fortunate enough to have a job, but that does not cover the rising costs of gass and energy.

I agree with you Tackle, this love affair has got to stop and start seeing what is going on. We are on a downhill slide and the slope is getting more and more slippery. We are going farther and farther into debt and charging more and more to the working people. It's sad that this is going on and people think it's great.

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Part of the problem with this bill, are the assumptions it makes. For instance, it assumes that in 2050, when 80% of carbon emissions need to be eliminated by, we will have most of our electricity coming from nuclear power plants. Last I heard, Minnesota didn't want any more nuclear power plants built here.

In agriculture, the measures in this bill could increase the cost to raise corn to $90 per acre. The cost to process that corn will increase, so our food supply would no longer be the most affordable in the world.

Before they rush to a vote, this bill should go through the proper channels, and be well thought out. You cannot put out a 1200 page bill in two months and have it be a smart, effective piece of legislation. It needs to be based on sound science, and not emotion.

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Walleye 101 I did not know you only wanted responses from people that agreed to your line of thinking. As we all interrupt things written on the web in different ways and we form opinions of the characters who write them. Its to bad some can not respect the opinions of others and its to bad they have to voice there disagreement in such a personal manner as almost attacking a point of veiw or opinion.

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In agriculture, the measures in this bill could increase the cost to raise corn to $90 per acre.

maybe then they would get rid of the worst idea ever Ethanol

No matter what they end up doing with this bill its a guarantee it will not involve a whole lot of intelligence just like the rest. Have all the politicians involved meet at a coal power plant and send them in the burner with the coal.

good luck

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Gotta love trickle-up poverty! waytogo.gif

Oh well, it's exactly what the current regime wants....more people addicted to government assistance and less people believing in the American Dream. It's nothing but social engineering at work. Look how well that worked out for the city of Detroit. eek.gif

They're saying this has no chance in the Senate and if we're all lucky that will be true.

At least there is one consistent thing about the current administration....they want more money out of our pockets and more people on the unemployment line and they've been succeeding in these two areas with every decision they've made destroying wealth at every turn. Well done!!

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Walleye 101 I did not know you only wanted responses from people that agreed to your line of thinking. As we all interrupt things written on the web in different ways and we form opinions of the characters who write them. Its to bad some can not respect the opinions of others and its to bad they have to voice there disagreement in such a personal manner as almost attacking a point of veiw or opinion.

Strange counter response to a fella who started out his response to you with "that is your option..."

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Gotta love trickle-up poverty! waytogo.gif

Oh well, it's exactly what the current regime wants....more people addicted to government assistance and less people believing in the American Dream. It's nothing but social engineering at work. Look how well that worked out for the city of Detroit. eek.gif

They're saying this has no chance in the Senate and if we're all lucky that will be true.

At least there is one consistent thing about the current administration....they want more money out of our pockets and more people on the unemployment line and they've been succeeding in these two areas with every decision they've made destroying wealth at every turn. Well done!!

They want to turn the US into a big, giant California.

I remember when the GOP wanted to change the constitution so Ah-nold could run for prez. No thanks. i'll pass on that one

It's not like we expect everything "fixed" in the economy in his first 6 months. we would have to go through he$% while all this garbage is being worked out through the market,anyways. It's what he/they are doing that will affect the future. these aren't people that are allowing the corrections to work out. they are using the downturn as an excuse to centralize power

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They want to turn the US into a big, giant California.

Or New York...

If you look at the vote from the various states, the northeast voted heavily in favor of this bill - New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut... I wonder where they think their power is going to come from?? crazy

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I wonder where they think their power is going to come from?? crazy

the light switch

oh..and all the windmills that they don't want built around them

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Originally Posted By: croix flats
Walleye 101 I did not know you only wanted responses from people that agreed to your line of thinking. As we all interrupt things written on the web in different ways and we form opinions of the characters who write them. Its to bad some can not respect the opinions of others and its to bad they have to voice there disagreement in such a personal manner as almost attacking a point of view or opinion.

Strange counter response to a fella who started out his response to you with "that is your option..."

As strange as it maybe I have little tolerance to passive aggressive behavior.

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maybe then they would get rid of the worst idea ever Ethanol

Since ethanol is considered a renewable fuel, this could help that industry out. It is the food/feed grade corn that will hurt your pocket book the most.

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Food-based ethanol (corn) is not viable long term. However, cellulose ethanol (switchgrass) may be part of the long-term solution. The development, research, and expansion of the food-based ethanol is, however, a necessary step in the development process toward that. Switchgrass-based ethanol has a lot of positives for energy production and natural resource conservation. I think it is an important path to continue along.

As for the Clean Energy bill itself, it is intended to increase the costs of carbon-based energy. Don't let anyone tell you that this will lower the cost of your energy bills (as I have seen some democratic pundits attempt on television). It is intended to increase energy costs to the point that alternative energy sources become more viable and people get more serious about energy conservation.

This is what government can do...provide incentives (or, in this case, a disincentive) in order to spur innovation. Government is not going to come up with clean energy sources, or the process to harness clean energy. Government is not creative enough, innovative enough, or responsive enough to actually come up with solutions. Government can regulate, and by doing so can push the private sector to create and innovate. That is what the private sector does better than government...actually solve the problem.

In that respect, the legislation is good. Because as long as the carbon based energy remains cheap, there is no incentive for consumers or producers to conserve or innovate. By increasing the cost, government may be able to spur innovation from the private sector toward alternative energy sources.

But beware of the 'unintended consequences', as has been alluded to in earlier posts. This legislation will increase the cost of production on American industry, and given it an additional competitive disadvantage against foreign manufacturing.

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Food-based ethanol (corn) is not viable long term. However, cellulose ethanol (switchgrass) may be part of the long-term solution. The development, research, and expansion of the food-based ethanol is, however, a necessary step in the development process toward that. Switchgrass-based ethanol has a lot of positives for energy production and natural resource conservation. I think it is an important path to continue along.

Food-based ethanol is an odd term, unless you are talking about vodka. grin

I believe that we can have both. There are a lot of corn ethanol opponents who say we are using up feed/food to create ethanol, yet they want to take land out of row crop production to grow switchgrass. At least with corn ethanol you can feed the dry distillers grains. There are areas of the United States where switchgrass ethanol makes a ton of sense, and areas where corn based makes sense. Both types are better than the wood ester methanols that were used before corn ethanol came into being.

This thread shouldn't turn into an ethanol bashing thread, either. There are plenty of those threads around!

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As for the Clean Energy bill itself, it is intended to increase the costs of carbon-based energy. It is intended to increase energy costs to the point that alternative energy sources become more viable and people get more serious about energy conservation.

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Walleye 101 I did not know you only wanted responses from people that agreed to your line of thinking. As we all interrupt things written on the web in different ways and we form opinions of the characters who write them. Its to bad some can not respect the opinions of others and its to bad they have to voice there disagreement in such a personal manner as almost attacking a point of veiw or opinion.

Croix,

I really did not intend that post as a personal attack and sincerely do respect your opinion.

Let me explain to you what I believe the problem is with our current political system. Just bear with me as I use our current Senator as an example, let me assure you it runs both ways. Also bear with me as this post will get a bit lengthy.

Our elected officials generally win by a fairly slim margin usually less than 10 percentage points. In elections with a viable third candidate often it is not even a majority. Once the election is over the winner technically represents all of us. And I think most honestly intend to practice that.

However, they (both sides) are most often indebted to their party affiliation (fund raising, political endorsements, etc). The parties are very powerful and immediately make it clear that it was the party that got them elected and that is where their allegience must be, or there will be consequences.

Then as they begin to practice the profession the allegiance intensifies. And much of that is the fault or us, the constituents. Those who's candidates loose react as though they have no representation. They are reluctant to contact their representative to provide an opinion assuming, or at times outright knowing, that the representative is going to vote the other way. Voters who originally supported the candidate are much more likely to contact their representative to support or oppose certain legislation, or in your case complement them on the great job they are doing.

Politicians are like Pavlov's dog. They respond to stimuli, either reward or correction. If all their actions result in constant reward it only tends to further polorize them.

Example: (Please remember this works both ways) Our current Senator has a tendency to vote on the liberal side of issues. She is presently riding a wave with the current administration and most likely is beginnig to believe that they are invincible. If all she ever hears from constituents is positive reinforcement who could blame her for continueing to veer further to the left?

It is our duty, and our right, as those in the minority to make our voices heard. Speak up, because it is her job to represent all of us. Demand to at least be heard. She may, and most likely will, still vote her allegience but at least make it a test of her consience.

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Originally Posted By: Jarrod32
As for the Clean Energy bill itself, it is intended to increase the costs of carbon-based energy. It is intended to increase energy costs to the point that alternative energy sources become more viable and people get more serious about energy conservation.

I think you summed it up pretty good. Since renewable energy sources cannot compete against baseload energy sources such as hydro, nuclear, and coal, they are going to penalize the carbon-based sources to help shrink the cost difference between them by increasing the cost of those sources instead of doing what is right which is working on bringing down the cost of renewables. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it? Ah, but the reason they don't do this is they know that wind and solar cannot provide electricity 24/7 and will never be able to be as cheap as carbon-based sources.

Renewable energy sources are expensive and are not cost effective, not to mention most of the "traditional" renewables we most often hear about like wind and solar do not provide electricity 24/7 and shouldn't be forced upon us as they are trying to do, plus we will be paying handsome amounts of money for. All the while coal, nuclear, and hydro keep the lights on 24/7 yet they are trying to run them out of business. As they say, don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Originally Posted By: Jarrod32
In that respect, the legislation is good. Because as long as the carbon based energy remains cheap, there is no incentive for consumers or producers to conserve or innovate. By increasing the cost, government may be able to spur innovation from the private sector toward alternative energy sources.

I have a hard time equating the legislation as "good" when it penalizes cheap electricity and those who provide it, which in turns means increases to not only the citizen's utility bills, but essentially every goods and service they purchase as those higher utility costs will ultimately be passed down from the outlets where Joe Six-pack gets said goods and services. If anyone thinks these increased energy costs are going to stop at the Utility they are in for a wake-up call.

I understand your angle in your post about forcing innovation, but why should we be penalizing those who provide a cheap product that WORKS?!!?!?.....unlike renewables which simply do not. Forcing innovation on the backs of the citizens is flat out wrong and they need to close their book on voodoo science and wander out into the real world once to see what they are actually doing.

Corn based ethanol gets massive subsidies and is virtually a protected species (read: ensures votes at the next election for your local ethanol pimp), yet it is well known that the entire industry is not cost effective and pollutes more than people want to hear (even the EPA has doubts about ethanol), not to mention it's effect on the land and the enormous water usage. So I ask, why not push substantial amounts of money towards carbon based energy sources to help clean up their output? At least with carbon-based electricity you actually get something to show for it: Cheap, dependable electricity. Something you absolutely do not get with renewables or corn based ethanol.

What they have done in Congress is just passed is a massive tax bill, period, and a regressive one at that which does nothing but compounds the problem. Trickle-up poverty in action once again. With any luck the Senate won't get the votes and this will be put to bed for a while longer.

Excellent thoughtful post by Lmitout. Though our posts collided don't overlook his for my reply to Croixflats. Two converstions going in different directions, but Lmitouts post is an excellent example of what I meant by educating yourself on what is in this bill. Nice job Lmit.

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Thankyou walleye 101 for the explanation my first post didn't help matters. I had the insane remarks and conspiracy theories of Glen Beck in the back of my head so I plead temporary insanity. I know, why would I watch him gotta get what is being said on both sides of an argument from the extreme to the benign, right? Or maybe its that closet masicist in me rearing its head.

But anyways, I do have reservations on this bill but I do believe someone has to kick the ball to make it move instead of waiting until the field is empty to score, by then the game is over and it will cost future generation a lot more than just money. I'm not talking about climate change when I say " lot more than money I speak of wars being fought for a dwindling resources and the fact this stuff is not helping our environment we live and play in.

The senate will not pass this, if anything the senate will alter it to a more reasonable solution.

The critics always come back saying renewal energy is going to us more. Well, annitialy yes but when the technology is there it will be cheaper and sustainable.

I dont remember what Minnesota University, they already have made huge accomplishments on creating a self contained generator system that makes its own fuel and supplies enough energy to sustain an elaborate home all from biofuel and its the size of a dual door gun locker.

The alarmist and the nae sayers just dont want to see the big picture of what kind of industry can be created through renewable resources if given the incentive and the opportunity.

With higher fossil fuel cost you bet someone will see the $ sign

ounce the playing field is equalized. Then prices will drop as we will have more choices to choose from. That is what the free market does right?

Maybe, with this new industry we may have a product that the politicians wont have their greasy hands all over it like they do with petrol and coal.

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