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#1561606 - 10/18/08 07:43 AM
Legal calibers for deer.
Big-Al Offline
Sr HotSpotOutdoors.com Family

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 723
Loc: NE MN
I am sure that I am going to get bashed by some, but go for it, I can take it.

How many other think that it was a very poor decision by the MN DNR to make cartridges such as the 223 and the 22-250 legal for the taking of deer?

I know there are a lot of folks out there that just love to be able to carry their AR-15 with a 20 or 30 round clip. The six or eight round volleys will become 10-15 round volleys. I believe that there will be a lot more wounded deer out there and this will lead to more bad publicity for us deer hunters, which we certainly don't need.

This will be difficult if not impossible to reverse, but I hope the DNR comes to their senses and changes this back next year.
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#1561610 - 10/18/08 07:52 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: Big-Al]
Eskimoman Offline
Sr HotSpotOutdoors.com Family

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 467
Loc: on the water
I agree 100%. Some people can kill a deer with these calibers. At the right range annd the right shot placement. Anything less and you have a wounded deer. I dont see why these changes are needed. There are some good choices of low recoil guns that are more suited for killing deer, such as the .243
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#1561617 - 10/18/08 08:16 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: Big-Al]
Big-Al Offline
Sr HotSpotOutdoors.com Family

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 723
Loc: NE MN
I should clarify that it is the legislator of course and not the DNR that changes laws. The way I heard it is that Dave Dill attached this to another bill and managed to get it passed. I just believe that the right folks within the DNR could have put a stop to it and did not.

I also heard that this is part of a push to simplify laws, which is a good thing in general, but making anything larger than a .22 rim fire legal for deer is just a bit too simple for me.
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#1561621 - 10/18/08 08:32 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: Big-Al]
picksbigwagon Online   scared
HotSpotOutdoors Specialist

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 5225
Loc: The Cave of Caerbannog
Lou Cornice, from the DNR does post on this website quite often and he did adress this issue earlier this year.

http://www.fishingminnesota.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1472867/2

Not all AR's are chambered in .223, if I was going to take my AR-15 out deer hunting, I would get a new upper for it in 243 wssm or 25wssm. My AR is the most accurate firearm in my safe and I feel comfortable taking shot out to 300 yards with it. Albeit I would never take a shot at any deer, at 300 yards, with any rifle.
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#1561626 - 10/18/08 08:39 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: picksbigwagon]
N7709K Offline
HotSpotOutdoors.com Family

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 80
Loc: Osakis, Minnesota
When I started looking for a rifle two years ago I was a little concerned about recoil. Up until then the largest rifle that I had ever shot was my dad's .308. I decided to go with a savage .30-06 when I got my rifle. I could not be happier with it. There is very little recoil and it will take deer down well. I think that a .223 is too small for deer also. But you have to remember that a .22 hornet will also now be legal for deer.
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#1561627 - 10/18/08 08:41 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: picksbigwagon]
BobT Online   boggled
HSO Legacy Member

Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 7925
Loc: Osakis, MN
Quote:
The six or eight round volleys will become 10-15 round volleys.


I'm not sure I totally agree with this part. Maybe it's because I have never really heard an 8-round volley but where would one find opportunity to take that many shots at a deer. On the other hand I suppose that are those that would try but then, in my mind they don't show enough intelligence to own a firearm.

Bob
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#1561630 - 10/18/08 08:49 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: picksbigwagon]
Big-Al Offline
Sr HotSpotOutdoors.com Family

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 723
Loc: NE MN
Thanks picksbigwagon, I suppose I should have done a search for this topic. I don't visit the hunting forums too much that time of year, so I missed it. As always Lou explained it the DNR position on this. I do like simplified laws, but don't agree with this one.

This is closer to the rifle season and more people may chime in.
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#1561632 - 10/18/08 08:49 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: BobT]
picksbigwagon Online   scared
HotSpotOutdoors Specialist

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 5225
Loc: The Cave of Caerbannog
Exactly BobT, I feel the same way when I hear 5 shot slug volleys down where I hunt in SE MN
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#1561637 - 10/18/08 08:59 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: picksbigwagon]
BobT Online   boggled
HSO Legacy Member

Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 7925
Loc: Osakis, MN
I usually, repeat usually, feel that anyone that needs to take more than two rapid shots at any deer is not going to hit it on the third, fourth, fifth, or ever.

The reason I say usually is that I have witnessed people that can acutually hit accurately in rapid succession. My ex father-in-law was quite the marksman, having been offered the opportunity to represent the US in the Pan-Am games at one point in his life. I saw him put three consecutive 30-06 rounds into the bull of a 25' pistol target from 300 yards off-hand standing up! I can also attest to the accuracy of the range. He was very much into competition shooting and had a range setup on his own private property.

I also remember one time when we were deer hunting and I heard two very quick shots back-to-back. He shot two deer on the run in the woods and dropped em both dead in their tracks. But I think he and others like him are the rare exception.

Bob
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#1561645 - 10/18/08 09:16 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: BobT]
Dusty Online   content
Sr HotSpotOutdoors.com Family

Registered: 07/14/00
Posts: 640
Loc: Mn
I think the number of folks that would use a 223 or similar will be few and far between. The 357 mag is legal too in a hand gun no less and has been for some time.
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#1561911 - 10/18/08 07:46 PM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: Dusty]
harvey lee Offline
HSO Legacy Member

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 32319
Loc: SC MN
It all comes down to shot placement. I have shot deer with my 7MM at 350 yards and know I can make that shot. I shoot the rifle alot and now what it can and cannot do.

I use to think a 243 was not enough gun to kill deer until I used mine for a couple seasons and was very suprised just how well it performed on a deer.

I have a 223 and wouldn't use it for deer hunting but I would not be afraid to as it is a very accurate rifle and a bullet placed right will drop a deer.

I don't really mind these calibers as long as the person knows how to shot and what each caliber can do or how it will perform.

I have seen many hunters cripple deer with a large caliber or shotgun due to the fact they didn't sight it in or do a little testing to see what the gun or they could do with it.

I will say that those smaller caliber rifles won't do much damage to the meat if the bullet hits the wrong spot.
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#1561981 - 10/18/08 09:40 PM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: harvey lee]
A.W.Wolfram Offline
HotSpotOutdoors Specialist

Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 743
Loc: PriorLake MN
I have taken 2 deer with my 22-250(in Wisconsin on the same day) and I had no problem with knock down. Neither one made it more then 40 yards. One was at 60 and the other at 200 yards. Both one shot kills.

So, am I unethical for using that round? I think not.
I was not using your run of the mill varmint round. 40 to 50 grains won’t do it. The DNR dose state that in the regulations. I was using 60 grain barns expanders cranking out 3950 fps. This was out of the same gun that I have made a 540 yard kill shot on a coyote. So why wouldn’t I use it.

The opposite can be said about people using OVER powered rounds. Using a .338Win .416 Rigby .50BMG 500 nitro. These rounds do more damage to the game and present more danger to other hunters since that travel right threw and keeps going.

With the growing popularity of black rifles (AR’s) this seams to be move right direction.
I would like to be able to use my AR for more then targets and varmints.

IMO this comes down to ethics. Don’t take pore placed shots. Sight in your gun and know its limitations.
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#1561988 - 10/18/08 10:06 PM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: A.W.Wolfram]
paul pachowicz Offline
HotSpotOutdoors Specialist

Registered: 05/11/08
Posts: 727
Loc: South Dakota
does the DNR mention a minimum muzzle velocity?
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#1562057 - 10/19/08 06:15 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: paul pachowicz]
BobT Online   boggled
HSO Legacy Member

Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 7925
Loc: Osakis, MN
Don't want to take this off course but thought you all might find it a bit humorous. It does fit in with the discussion about shot placement and cartridge size.

About 20 years ago one of my sisters got married to a fellow that had recently graduated from a law enforcement academy. He was your typical gung-ho macho attitude academy graduate. No offense to you LE types but most of the friends that I have had over the years that elected law enforcement as a career choice have exhibited a similar attitude. Maybe it's a necessity that goes with the job. One can't be timid to do the work you do.

Anyway, to go along with this attitude, when he showed up to go deer hunting with my family for the first time he pulls out a .475 Weatherby Magnum rifle! Picture in your mind a young man in his early 20s, about 5'-6", and maybe 175# soaking wet.

We couldn't help but sling the comments about his cannon and whether he was hunting white tails or elephants. Of course he slung it right back saying, "When I hit something, it's going down to stay!"

Sure enough he does get an opportunity to drop a doe. He takes aim and fires and the doe does in fact drop in its tracks. Unfortunately for him, he was unprepared for what happened next. As he was walking to his doe, she suddenly jumps up and takes off leaving him totally befuddled.

To make matters worse, he made the dire mistake of telling us about it. He heard about that one for years to follow. Maybe our harrassing was part of the reason he divorced my sister?

Bob
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#1562066 - 10/19/08 06:53 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: paul pachowicz]
A.W.Wolfram Offline
HotSpotOutdoors Specialist

Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 743
Loc: PriorLake MN
This is in the 2008 comprehensive overview

Legal Cartridges and the Rifle-Shotgun Line

For 2008, the definition of legal calibers for big game hunting has been changed.

All centerfire cartridges, .220 or larger are legal for big game hunting.

Rimfire cartridges (.22 LR, .22 Magnum) are not legal for big game hunting. The change applies only to those cartridges with centerfire ignition.

Examples of new cartridges include the .220 Swift, 22-250, and .223.

Regardless of caliber, hunters are advised to choose bullets that are suitable for humanely taking big game.

With lighter bullets, the speed makes up for the mass.
For example; 30-06 with a 150g bullet dose about 2400fps
A 22-250 with a 50g bullet dose about 4000fps The energy exerted at 100 yards in comparable.
So, to answer your question. It’s a combination of both speed and mass. And if you don't know, do the ethical thing and get some opinions.

There are 90g rounds that are readily available for the .223.
Top Archived
#1562077 - 10/19/08 07:33 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: A.W.Wolfram]
picksbigwagon Online   scared
HotSpotOutdoors Specialist

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 5225
Loc: The Cave of Caerbannog
The Barnes TSX in a 223 or a 22-250 will take a deer, not sure if anyone factory loads those, I think you would have to either reload them yourself or have someone do that for you.

I haven't seen a 90 grain load in .224, who makes that Cap'n?
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#1562081 - 10/19/08 07:55 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: picksbigwagon]
A.W.Wolfram Offline
HotSpotOutdoors Specialist

Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 743
Loc: PriorLake MN
I'm sorry. those were hand loads.
Rem makes a 60g soft point that would work well for the non reloaders out there. If you can't find them I would not hesitate to use a 55g soft point, there vary common. This would probably limit you to the 200 yard mark.
Top Archived
#1562121 - 10/19/08 09:11 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: Dusty]
Muthagoose Offline
Sr HotSpotOutdoors.com Family

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 635
Loc: Virginia,MN,USA
I own several little guns,shoot them often and proficiently,yet disagree with the DNR doing this. Myself not a problem to pop one in the melon or the boiler room but the smallest Ill use on deer is my 243 that is if I haven't stuck one with a arrow by then.
Seen several shot with a 357,does the job nicely. I own 3 in blackhawk's yet If inclined to pistol shoot the 44mag's go...
Considering the various caliber's offered in the Ar platform,ect several are excellent choices. A gun is a gun its the bases of gun rights and shouldn't separate any hunters yet I dread the clowns dumping clips in the big woods. BobT says it right in his description of" rare exception".
Personally out of respect to the animal and consideration to the error factor Ill stick with a bigger weapon..
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#1562430 - 10/19/08 06:24 PM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: Big-Al]
KG243 Offline
Sr HotSpotOutdoors.com Family

Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 831
Loc: Cambridge, MN
I own a DPMS chambered in a 308 and love it. I would say that I disgree with most in here saying that most of the guys shooting the .22 calibure centerfire probbaly shoot there now leagal big game calibure rifle a lot more then the average rifle hunter. That being said I know that all my buddies that have a .22 calibure rifle can out shoot very well due to there prarie dogging skills. Not to say it is right to take a poke at a deer 300 yards out there with a .22 calibure, but an stupid person with a 30-06 or 223 is still a stupid person no matter what size gun they carry! You guys would not believe the [PoorWordUsage] I get from carying my AR 308 into the woods, but hands down I know I could shoot a deer out to 400 meters without a problem. Anyone looking for a good gun look at the DPMS 308 they come in every flavor!
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#1562524 - 10/19/08 07:34 PM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: KG243]
riverrat56 Offline
Sr HSO Family

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 4348
Loc: New Ulm, MN, USA
I did shoot at a deer 6 times once, (that included a reload) and the darn thing never moved, then when I was fumbling around for my slugs it trotted off and I think it acctually laughed at me.

Found out later that my scope rings had worked loose and I was shooting over a foot high at 25 yds.

Anyways back on topic, I don't have a problem with this rule change, in the hands of a competent shooter .22 Caliber centerfires are cabable of killing a deer, maybe more efficently than a bow and arrow?

Like said, stupid people will still be stupid and a poor shot choice with a .22-250 wouldn't be fixed with a larger rifle. Although the margin of error in placement is greater with a larger caliber.
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#1562574 - 10/19/08 08:07 PM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: riverrat56]
A.W.Wolfram Offline
HotSpotOutdoors Specialist

Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 743
Loc: PriorLake MN
Originally Posted By: riverrat56

stupid people will still be stupid and a poor shot choice with a .22-250 wouldn't be fixed with a larger rifle. Although the margin of error in placement is greater with a larger caliber.

Well put.
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#1562602 - 10/19/08 08:42 PM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: A.W.Wolfram]
Black_Bay Online   biggrin
Sr HSOList.com Family

Registered: 09/30/05
Posts: 1932
Loc: Up Yonder
Don't high velocity small caliber bullets fragment more than slower larger calibers? I thought I read that's why the U.S. Army went away from the 30.06 and to the .223 in the M-16. If that's true this rule change kind of goes against the whole lead fragmentation scare going on. How many of these small calibers are factory loaded with copper bullets?
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#1562749 - 10/20/08 06:23 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: Big-Al]
KG243 Offline
Sr HotSpotOutdoors.com Family

Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 831
Loc: Cambridge, MN
You are probably right with the whole lead thing, but the NRA was saying that they never found enough lead that would harm anyone. I think it is also important to say that if you hit the deer in the vitals how much meat is there realy ro reck? Its thoughs bad shots that end up in the rump, then you might want to worry about lead!
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#1562968 - 10/20/08 08:59 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: KG243]
SORNO Offline
HotSpotOutdoors.com Family

Registered: 10/15/08
Posts: 85
Loc: Southern, MN
I don't agree with the changes. I believe .243 is to small of caliber for a lot of hunters.
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#1562995 - 10/20/08 09:15 AM
Re: Legal calibers for deer. [Re: SORNO]
Cooter Offline
HotSpotOutdoors Pro Staff

Registered: 05/12/04
Posts: 4855
Loc: Eau Claire, WI
I shot a doe on Thur with my .223 - I used 64gr power points and the bullet almost passed through, found it mushroomed perfectly just inside the hide.
I had wanted to shoot a deer with that rifle for a couple years and decided I would do it during the antlerless only season and limit shots to under 100 yards and broadside. It was about an 80 yard shot and that doe died just as well as if you'd shot it through the chest with anything. Good sized deer, dressed at 110lbs. So of course, with the right bullet and shot placement and limited distances you can kill deer with small calibers. However, you wouldn't catch me out during regular season with it. A less than ideal angle at a large buck with some shot distance and I wouldn't feel confident with the little .223 bullet.
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